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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Jody Aliesan 
April 18, 1996 
Cassette 2, Side 1 
 
 
Julie O'Grady  00:35 
The date is April 18, 1996. I am Julie O'Grady, a student at the University of Washington, 
working on the Washington Women's Heritage Project. Today, I will be conducting an oral 
history interview with Jody Aliesan. Jody is presently residing in Seattle, Washington, and this 
interview is taking place in her home there. Okay, Jody, you have some notes here, and on the 
top of one of the pages, it says in quotes, "Why do you have to be different?" What does that 
mean?  
 
Jody Aliesan  01:09 
Well, I was just reminding myself of something that my mother said last May. Uh, at the top of 
the page, I found myself writing the word "misfit," because I have felt most of my life that I 
didn't quite fit. Really didn't fit anywhere. But that was okay. Most of the time, it was fine with 
me, but now and then, for example, with my mother last May, I was feeling that our relationship 
was getting more and more comfortable, and that I could be more and more myself and talk to 
her about my life, um, things that were important to me. I went a little too far, um, and I didn't 
get very far into what I thought was, um, a comfortable description of something that was true 
for me about my past, when she yelled at me out of the blue, "Why do you have to be different?" 
It really stunned me, and at the time, I just said, "I'm not trying to be different. I'm just trying to 
be myself." And then she sat back and quieted down and we were fine again. But that's 
underlying her feelings about me. Like I'm trying to prove something and shock somebody, 
whatever, instead of just trying to be myself. 
 
Julie O'Grady  02:25 
Do you think that has underlined her feelings-- 
 
Jody Aliesan  02:28 
Mhm [affirmative].  
 
Julie O'Grady  02:28 
--for you all along-- 
 
Jody Aliesan  02:29 
All along. 
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Julie O'Grady  02:29 
--throughout your life? 
 
Jody Aliesan  02:30 
Mhm. Mhm. She's had an idea about who she wanted me to be. Very conventional idea. Nothing 
particularly, uh, dark or different, um, from the usual definition of a, a healthy girl child. It's just 
that her idea doesn't match who I am, not that that means I'm not a healthy girl child. So her idea 
was, I think I mentioned, and she's used the words herself, the effervescent, bubbly, outgoing, 
feminine, um, sort of person. 
 
Julie O'Grady  03:23 
Does that describe her? 
 
Jody Aliesan  03:26 
Not really, no. 
 
Julie O'Grady  03:28 
I wanted to talk about, um, to begin our talk today with adolescence, and if you could share with 
me what your experience was like when you--on the first day of your menstruation. No. 
 
Jody Aliesan  03:28 
No, but she has--she has al-- She's always wanted to be more or less, um, an organizer, 
administrator of things. She would like a daughter who is, um, kind of the willing, able, and 
ready to serve assistant in her social view of the universe. That's [inaudible]. She is, um... She 
sees herself and she behaves in an extroverted, external, gregarious, expansive, and social way, 
um, but once again, from the point of view of the-the leader. Mmm. I'm not interested in those 
things. I'm not. I'm not, and I don't mind saying that I'm not, and it doesn't bother me that I'm not 
a leader. It's, uh, not my role. You, know, um, she sees her community involvement and almost 
anything she does from that point of view. And the other thing I wrote down here is that, um, my 
mother once told me I was too independent. And, um... The--so those two, I think, have 
resonance with the fact that I'm, astrologically speaking, an Aquarius rising, and people who 
know about such things tell me that it's not unusual for someone with that rising sign to be 
independent and different [chuckles], not to take the results of that as both a blessing and a curse. 
I've been one who has involved herself in a number of social issues and organizations because it 
was the best way to express my concern and the best way to do something about it, but I find, 
and this may be the poet in me, that there's something always in me that stands back and has a 
certain detachment and watches so that I'm not, um, pulled into something where I can't be 
allowed to use my own critical judgment in an unthinking, following, or leading way. I think that 
may be part of Aquarius rising, too. Well, the-the first day-- I believe it must have been a 
Sunday, because I was squatting over the comics on the floor of the living room, and a drop of 
blood fell on the paper. And I looked down, and I knew what it was. And I went to my mother 
and told her what had happened, and she asked my father to go down to the corner grocery store 
and get menstrual pads. He brought them back in a brown paper bag. I went into the bathroom 
and fitted the belt, [inaudible] elastic belt and menstrual pad, and that was that.  
 
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Julie O'Grady  07:23 
How old were you? 
 
Jody Aliesan  07:24 
Ten, and, um, my mother and I--not to mention my father and I--have never talked about it. 
Fortunately, the year before, in fourth grade, when I started getting breasts, I guess the teacher--a 
wonderful man, very observant man, I-I don't know, his name was Mr. Early. I think he may 
have been gay. He was very kind to me. He was the only teacher I had in grade school who really 
saw what I could do and brought it out, gave me assignments to take me beyond the rote, not 
necessarily boring, but too easy curriculum. He must have had a hand in it, because he-he was 
the one who was really seeing me all the time and the school nurse didn't. At any rate, I was 
asked to go to the school nurse in fourth grade, who then gave me all the information that I 
needed. And I was also told to go to that cartoon movie, that Walt Disney movie, in fourth grade. 
So I knew all that from the written materials and from the movie and all the rest of it. And so the 
time came, it didn't matter that no one at home had ever mentioned it. The only other thing that 
happened before him was that prior to going to see the school nurse and the movie, my mother 
had taken me to an oncologist, I guess--maybe it was a GP. No, it was a specialist, because she 
was afraid that that, um, I might be getting cancer, because one of my breasts started before the 
other one, and it was just a lump under my nipple that stuck out, and once she was assured that I 
was just mature, physically, you know, taken care of, I had a cousin to die of cancer as a little 
girl, so there was some serious concern on her part, but, um, I think--I felt very matter-of-fact the 
day it happened. I was prepared, recognized it, took care of it. And, um, it really didn't settle into 
me what was happening until the next month, when it happened again. Somehow, it never got 
through to me that this was something that's going to continue to happen month after month for 
as far ahead as I could see in my life. [Laughs.] Ah, that was-- 
 
Julie O'Grady  10:02 
How did you feel about that?  
 
Jody Aliesan  10:04 
Wait a minute! [Laughs.] I thought I'd been pretty good enduring it that one time [they laugh]. 
But I had to deal with raising my hand to go to the bathroom and recess and making it to recess. 
And I had started out fairly heavily too, so-- And I had to, I had to keep it a secret. It was very 
clear that it was something I wasn't supposed to tell anyone else. In fact, in sixth grade, when 
there was a discussion in-in the classroom, meeting of just the girls about menstruation, there 
was a girl sitting in front of me who raised her hand and said to the teacher, "Does it hurt?" And I 
meant to reassure her, and sitting behind her, I said, "Oh, it's a certain kind of hurt, but it's not 
really pain [inaudible] all the time." She turned around, and she said, glaring at me, "How do you 
know?" And I shut up! [Laughs.] 
 
Julie O'Grady  11:01 
Who was it that told you to go to the principal to see movies? 
 
Jody Aliesan  11:04 
Well, I--it was the only people--the only person that I'm aware of was the school nurse. She was 
the one. I guess Mr. Early sent me to her. I just don't remember his part in it, um, but he must 
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have, or must have suggested, which is far more likely, that she seek me out. He didn't have any 
obvious hand in hand, guessing altogether, just because he was a sensitive and caring person and 
very discreet. So all I remember now is that I was-- I somehow found myself in contact with her, 
and she gave me the written information and arranged for me to see the movie. Oh, it was no big 
deal. Um. And then menopause has been no big deal, either. I have--I don't know. I assume that 
I'm all the way through it now, I don't know. I haven't menstruated for two-and-a-half years and 
I'm going on 53 coming this Monday, and I have [inaudible] symptoms of menopause, I have to 
say, um, fortunately for me. Only I-I guess, about 10 to 18%. But in between, in the early years, I 
had heavy flow, pretty painful cramps, stayed home from school. Another thing to endure 
[chuckles]. 
 
Julie O'Grady  12:46 
Are you taking estrogen?  
 
Jody Aliesan  12:47 
No, I chose against it. I-I feel that it's a natural process for me. In particular, it's easy because I'm 
not having any debilitating symptoms. I don't have a disease model for it. I don't feel I need to 
take medicine for it, and if it means that I will experience physically all the things that pertain to 
aging, well, that's part of process of learning, so at this point, I've chosen against it. Also because 
of the, um, all the--all the whole estrogen and hormone replacement therapy debates. Heart 
disease on the one hand, cancer on the other hand. My, uh, heart and my cholesterol level and 
[inaudible] level are in very, very good shape, on the one hand. On the other hand, hand, there is 
cancer in the family, so I don't see any point of it.  
 
Julie O'Grady  13:55 
Well, you have all of your notes here.  
 
Jody Aliesan  13:57 
Oh! 
 
Julie O'Grady  13:57 
And you're very prepared. [Soft laughs.] 
 
Jody Aliesan  13:59 
Ah! So interesting. Do have any other questions that you've been given to ask, though? We may 
as well take care of that requirement.  
 
Julie O'Grady  14:08 
I think-- There aren't any requirements, actually. 
 
Jody Aliesan  14:11 
What was-- What did I--? [Pause. Papers shuffling.] 
 
Julie O'Grady  14:23 
No, it's okay. It's-it's all pretty much been covered.  
 
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Jody Aliesan  14:25 
Okay.  
 
Julie O'Grady  14:25 
Voluntarily, I'm sure, so, so, um, please go ahead.  
 
Jody Aliesan  14:31 
Okay, well, I've--I've divided up-- I've divided up my life-- 
 
Julie O'Grady  14:35 
Mm [affirmative]. 
 
Jody Aliesan  14:35 
--into some categories here. So I'll just speak from these notes. I guess I'll start with, uh, my 
experiences, which seems appropriate after the puberty and menopause, talking about how I've 
experienced myself as a female. I've written at the top of this bunch of notes, that I've had to deal 
with, I guess I'd say, a generalized comment I can make about my life as a female is, especially 
as a small female with a soft voice, is that I've had to deal with a lot of underestimation and 
patronization. It's been a really, real constant thing where I've been... A lot has been assumed. 
And what's been assumed has been less than who I am and what I can do, so so many, um, 
experience--every, practically every new experiences with other people has been finding myself 
rising in their estimation as they get to know me, as I'm having to deal with their small 
definitions at the beginning. As a female, I have been, um, aware of my gender in a way that I 
haven't regretted. I'm not sure if that's the same as being proud of being female, but-- The only 
times that I can remember wishing I were a boy, it was more that I wished that I had their 
privileges or, or their, the fact, or that fact or that their struggle, which seemed to be less than 
mine. And I would say that, from my perspective, looking back over my life, that I have been--in 
this spectrum of definitions--in an androgynous place, and that androgyny has given me an 
interesting perspective on both, um, people who were more conventionally feminine, whether 
they were male or female, and also those who were more masculine in things. Growing up, 
although I lived in a time when it was required of me to dress in the conventional female way--in 
fact, my college didn't allow wearing pants, except in the evenings in the dormitory and on 
weekends, if you can believe things have changed--but my preference was for what people 
would call, uh, crossover clothing. I was, uh, what I suppose could be called, a tomboy cross-
dresser in that respect, and my-my favorite activities were also more or less cross-gendered. I 
was not interested in typically female, um toys, replicas of, um, domestic tools or dolls and 
things like that. I was more interested in replicas of scientific or construction tools. Microscope, 
for example, was a favorite, and I liked playing outside. I liked building forts, and burrows, 
exploring things, especially with a lot of imagination, so that the same vacant lot could become 
an Egyptian tomb, and I would be going through looking through passages and finding 
hieroglyphs, and picking up things and creating something else out of them. Also liked, um, 
hiking and camping and backpacking, which became more of an option as I got older, of course, 
in junior high and high school. And indoor things, I was a great reader. That was a solace, and an 
escape, and an enrichment. Books were friends. I enjoyed, especially reading science and, uh, 
books about different cultures. I liked making things with my hands, especially [?insect?]. In our 
household, there weren't that many toys as toys. A lot of what we played with were things we 
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created out of, um, paper and cardboard and imaginative uses of furniture. I mean, I suppose all 
children throw a sheet over a table and use it as a hideout, and that was the kinds of things that 
made a lot of [?sense?] indoors when it was cold and rainy. And skits! That was great fun. 
Acting, coming up with imaginary characters, acting. What I was not interested in--and this went 
on in a very awkward way once I got to high school--I wasn't interested in parties or social 
events or femininity as an act, which for me, it was. I could--I could dress in drag, I could, uh, do 
the feminine stuff, but it was never me. I always felt, on one hand, false, and on the other, 
sometimes humiliated by the times when I tried, especially times when I really did try, when it 
came out of feeling that I was supposed to do this, and it was somehow part of growing up. But 
the other part about fashion for the family I grew up in is that in my childhood and in--even into 
junior high, but mostly in childhood--we received packages from people who would donate 
clothing. I actually had a lot of pleasure sorting through them and seeing things that I never 
would have known existed or would have chosen. So I didn't really feel bad about it until I got to 
junior high and high school, but by then, we were buying new clothes for myself, it wasn't so 
much that I was ashamed of secondhand clothes. It was-- It was that, um, the clothing that we 
could afford wasn't fashionable, and also we could afford, um, buying clothing for-for the-us 
children once a year, beginning school year, and not that many pieces of it, either. So we would 
collect over time, you'd have clothing to change into, [inaudible], but it was very obviously not 
in, and I had to deal with some, uh, subtle and, and even more obvious, ridicule, not really 
contempt, but just people making fun of me in their own ways. My aspirations in those days 
were as [inaudible] meaning young people. But I remember talking seriously about the 
possibility of being a forest ranger, park ranger or veterinarian, not that I was really scientifically 
inclined in terms of, uh, um, the discipline. I think it was more of a romantic notion of being able 
to be out in the wild and being able to work with animals. But I probably don't need to say that 
both of those were not considered a possible reality for me, and when I spoke of them, nobody 
actually laughed in my face, but it was clear that I said something that was a bit preposterous. So 
it makes me feel good these days to see women in park ranger and forest ranger outfits, and see 
them doing their jobs and knowing that it's reality and that isn't happening the same with 
veterinary medicine, it's not happening to girls now. I may have mentioned before that one way 
for me out of the small oil town that I found myself in, and I can describe it later, um, in a lot of 
ways, it was-- 
 
Julie O'Grady  23:33 
Which town was it? 
 
Jody Aliesan  23:34 
It's called El Segundo. It's in, around-- It's not part of Los Angeles, but it's down there. It's four 
miles square. Its northern boundary is the jet runway for the international airport of Los Angeles. 
To the south is an oil refinery that's about four times as big as the town. And the town is named 
"The Second" because it was, at one time, the second largest oil refinery on the west coast. And 
then to the east is just a great, expansive wasteland of-of factories of one kind or another, mostly 
aircraft. Wasteland is judgmental, but that's what it looked like. It was all concrete. And to the 
west was a sewage plant, and the beach, which was covered with tar. And, um, you know, every 
four minutes, you'd have huge jets taking off, rattling the windows, and the refinery would be 
hissing and steaming and all kinds of colors all night, and dripping oil droplets everywhere, and 
the trees were stunted, and there weren't any birds, and it was like that. 
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Julie O'Grady  24:42 
Which part of your life was this? 
 
Jody Aliesan  24:43 
Between the ages of eight and eighteen. Ten years and what felt like exile for me. And although 
as a small town, it had and still has a lot of community spirit, mutual aid, um, kind of a working 
class, lower-middle class, helping-each-other, sort of ethos that speaks well for it. It still was a 
lonely place for me. For example, most of the people that I knew and my parents knew had a 
similar sort of situation in their households. There were maybe a dozen books, and those were 
handed down and very valued, but there was very little reading. On the other hand, in my family, 
there was a lot of singing and interesting, um, [inaudible] instruments. But nonetheless, I felt that 
staying in that town, there would be expectations of me to fit into the life of the whatever, and, 
um, and to have a conventional family and to raise children. And I felt like I would be buried 
alive. Somebody was going to nail me into a coffin, and who I could be would never have a 
chance to breathe. It was really important to me early on, that I had to get out of there, not 
because it was a bad place, but the only way I would grow would be to leave, um [clears throat], 
and the only way I could leave would be to do really well in school. And I was fortunate that my 
skills were scholastic enough that that wasn't difficult, also, given the quality of school in town, 
but also I did, uh, go outside my temperament to try to be well-rounded, too, so that I would be a 
good scholarship candidate. And, um, so the results of that were that I did get, um, my top 
scholarship and all-around sorts of awards in junior high and high school. And I felt that I was 
doing this for girls, too, that I was pushing the boundaries of what girls could do, and I had pretty 
good solidarity with other girls. For one thing, I wasn't competing with them for prettyness or 
boys, and I definitely wasn't in, so the closest in group of the most popular girl, uh, well, they-
they weren't really interested in knowing me, and sometimes at the beginning of independent 
time, like in classrooms or whatever, they'd think I was somebody who wasn't worth it, but in 
time, that would change. And so I think the thing that I valued most about everything that 
happened to me at the end of high school was that an organization called The Girls' League 
actually sent a representative to the house one night to tell me that they had given me their top 
award for a senior girl, young lady. And I didn't really even know what existed, but they'd gotten 
past what often got put on me, that I was stuck up and conceited or aloof or judgmental because I 
didn't mix and didn't know how to make social small talk and all the rest of it, and they had 
gotten past that and-and seen who I was. So, you-you know, of all the different kinds of votes 
and scholarships and such that I got that year, that's the one that means the most. But some of the 
other things I did was, uh, I was in the band, and I was in the junior and senior class plays, and 
the musicals, and service organizations, and scholastic and honorary organizations, and I was an 
American Field Service student to Germany. I was "Most Likely to Succeed," and I got four 
scholarships, including the National Merit Scholarship and one of the scholarships included a 
summer job which helped get me through college. Um, in band, I played drums. I started out in 
clarinet, but I gravitated to all kinds of percussion, and again, not because I was trying to prove 
anything, even though I turned out to be the only girl in the percussion section, but a lot of times 
I turned out to be the only girl in whatever thing. I got along with the boys okay, I didn't 
remember having--getting in trouble about being in the wrong section at all. I just haven't 
[inaudible]. I also ran for student body president, not because I'm a natural leader or a naturally 
political person, but there never had been a girl student body president, and it seemed that there 
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was an assumption that a girl shouldn't be that girls wanted to be secretaries of the student body. 
So I-- [recording cuts off]. 
 